Has medieval style fantasy had its day?

[Finchbearer]

Has what we describe as medieval style fantasy, or maybe ‘classic fantasy’ had its day? Is it set to become chronically overworked? Particularly since the popularity of A Song of Ice and Fire series. Are we now in that strange place where only parodies of this genre are acceptable in the wider market?

(Whilst taking into account that this style of fantasy often also takes inspiration from time periods that fall outside of the medieval period give or take a few thousand years, and is usually set in the Western European part of the world, but can be inspired by other geographical or cultural influences.)

What I find discouraging is that it’s the style I find myself most drawn to both enjoy reading and writing most of the time but it would seem to me that agents and publishers in particular are actively avoiding this genre in favour of pretty much anything that isn’t medieval inspired fantasy. What I find discouraging isn’t that I can’t simply continue enjoying writing in this genre, but more that if I want anyone to actually read it, am I on a hopeless mission?

What are people’s thoughts on this?

I’d like to discourage the answers that are broadly, ‘as long as it’s a good story it doesn’t matter the genre’ or ‘it’s context dependent’.

And without the discussion turning too politically charged, what do we think of the industry being more currently favourable to underrepresented authors and therefore stories that are not set in Western Europe? As a white European person, this also discourages me. Do I even stand a chance?

 

[Queshire]

And without the discussion turning too politically charged, what do we think of the industry being more currently favourable to underrepresented authors and therefore stories that are not set in Western Europe? As a white European person, this also discourages me. Do I even stand a chance?

To start with this; whenever I hear a question like this I have to ask by what metric do you measure success? Yes, traditional publishing is and always has been bound by the whims of the publishers and what they view as most profitable. That stands on its own even without politics getting involved. At the same time it's never been easier to self publish or focus on the indie equivalent to writing.

Has what we describe as medieval style fantasy, or maybe ‘classic fantasy’ had its day? Is it set to become chronically overworked? Particularly since the popularity of A Song of Ice and Fire series. Are we now in that strange place where only parodies of this genre are acceptable in the wider market?

(Whilst taking into account that this style of fantasy often also takes inspiration from time periods that fall outside of the medieval period give or take a few thousand years, and is usually set in the Western European part of the world, but can be inspired by other geographical or cultural influences.)

What I find discouraging is that it’s the style I find myself most drawn to both enjoy reading and writing most of the time but it would seem to me that agents and publishers in particular are actively avoiding this genre in favour of pretty much anything that isn’t medieval inspired fantasy. What I find discouraging isn’t that I can’t simply continue enjoying writing in this genre, but more that if I want anyone to actually read it, am I on a hopeless mission?

What are people’s thoughts on this?

Back to this now... well I've got to be honest, I've never been a fan of medieval fantasy. That's just personal tastes though. It's been such an enduring genre that I struggle to imagine it ever being fully eclipsed. Classic fantasy has such big names as Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, Brandon Sanderson's stuff... all the way back to Lord of the Rings. What compares? Harry Potter? Twilight? It still seems to me that the balance favors the medievalesque side of things.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I'm not really sure what qualifies as "medieval" high fantasy. GoT sure, LoTR? Ummm. I don't consider LoTR medieval. Western? Yes. I think the "high" or "epic" is missing from your description.

Trad publishing (when considered from the profit/loss presented in court documents) is a bad business model that would be dead if not for big-name backlist authors, so don't judge by their interests. Judge by sales on Amazon.

Just a guess: Medieval, in the loose definition I suspect most folks use, dominates and will continue to do so when it comes to sales. Penetrating the market might be a bigger problem, which might be the unspoken reason why people want and shoot for books outside that description.

 

[pmmg]

I would suggest that the 'gatekeepers' part of the industry is infected with the same bug that is permeating much of our media culture, and that they have miscalculated the market for more traditional stuff. I also suspect that these swing more like a pendulum than a one way direction. It will drift one way, until its too much, and then it will come swinging back until the same thing happens again.

I would also assert, that a good story trumps current trends, and the next big story will not be one that checks all the boxes, but one no one saw coming. I'd not be surprised if it was along the lines of traditional fantasy.

And last....that story you write today may come in a little early, but the test of time may still show it to be a winner. It just may take a while to get there.

So...no... I don't think its had its day. Its day is still here, and will remain so till long after I'm gone.


Edit to add: A Song of Fire and Ice may have had its day though. A day is coming when someone will say, 'Just like Daeneryies with the two dragons' and people will go, Daeneryies who?

 

[Finchbearer]

To start with this; whenever I hear a question like this I have to ask by what metric do you measure success? Yes, traditional publishing is and always has been bound by the whims of the publishers and what they view as most profitable. That stands on its own even without politics getting involved. At the same time it's never been easier to self publish or focus on the indie equivalent to writing.

I not discounting self-publishing as a means of getting your work out there. From my perspective as an outsider looking in, the path to success in self-publishing looks different but the outcome is pretty much the same; a published book in the public sphere.

Problem is the potential reader has to wade through fifty tonnes of trash before they find a gem, and most people stop looking long before they get to that point. The other issue is that people enjoy reading trash. In other words, the self-publishing market is too saturated, so there is probably roughly the same probability of making it a successful endeavour. Unless of course your definition of success is even one person reading and enjoying your book, which at this point for me is pretty much my bar. I’m not ready to publish yet.

With traditional publishing according to Google, the chances of getting published are roughly 1-2%. But you get an editor, promotion and a potential career out of it. But the biases are there, and the way I would see it as more fair is that everyone gets an even slice of pie regardless of personal identity or what culture your plot represents.

 

[Incanus]

Not that I've researched these trends, but I don't think this kind of fantasy has had its day.

It is what I am writing, all I want to write, and about half of what I read.

Fantasy in general seems to be as popular as ever.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

1-2%? Who the hell is Google trying to fool? Promotion? Potential career? There are way more indies making more money than traditional published authors. The Big 5 do very little to promote a work unless they spend big bucks in a bidding war, which is about like winning the lottery. Typically, they'll promote you through their channels, which is good, but if you imagine them spending bucks on a new book and unproven author? It's rare. The publishing industry chases unicorns and finds 1 about every 5-10 years, and it's the unicorns (and their backlist) that allow publishers to pay newbie fiction authors 5k for the rights to their book. It's a bit like the music industry.

If self-published is saturated, that means publishing itself is saturated. And it is. A well-reviewed trad book that came out not too long after Eve of Snows that I bought never got traction in the market, and the author has an agent taking a cut out of their tiny slice of the pie.

A Tier 1 book for Penguin Random House is a book anticipated to have 75,000+ sales, and helluva lot of those are established writers and celebrities. That's the best tier. It's ugly out there for careers in writing.

And I could add, Eve of Snows has sold more copies than a lot of Trad published Literary Award Winners. Those awards can be won by books that sell hundreds or four figures in copies, but the publishers want them for status, much like paying a politician or celebrity millions for a book that will NEVER earn the money back.

I not discounting self-publishing as a means of getting your work out there. From my perspective as an outsider looking in, the path to success in self-publishing looks different but the outcome is pretty much the same; a published book in the public sphere.

Problem is the potential reader has to wade through fifty tonnes of trash before they find a gem, and most people stop looking long before they get to that point. The other issue is that people enjoy reading trash. In other words, the self-publishing market is too saturated, so there is probably roughly the same probability of making it a successful endeavour. Unless of course your definition of success is even one person reading and enjoying your book, which at this point for me is pretty much my bar. I’m not ready to publish yet.

With traditional publishing according to Google, the chances of getting published are roughly 1-2%. But you get an editor, promotion and a potential career out of it. But the biases are there, and the way I would see it as more fair is that everyone gets an even slice of pie regardless of personal identity or what culture your plot represents.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Problem is the potential reader has to wade through fifty tonnes of trash before they find a gem, and most people stop looking long before they get to that point. The other issue is that people enjoy reading trash. In other words, the self-publishing market is too saturated, so there is probably roughly the same probability of making it a successful endeavour.

Preach. I'm at the point that I'm going in guns blazing for trad publishing and will resort to self publishing if that doesn't work. My bar for myself should be the same anyway.
The only chance I see in SP is most self-publishers can't afford marketing (myself included) but if the pennies can be saved, the local bookstores visited, etc, there's a real chance of a good book catching on and spreading. With SP it's all about marketing, I think (read "time and money spent on visibility on the front end.")

And without the discussion turning too politically charged, what do we think of the industry being more currently favourable to underrepresented authors and therefore stories that are not set in Western Europe? As a white European person, this also discourages me. Do I even stand a chance?

I think, first and most importantly, I don't currently have a book I'm trying to publish but getting blockaded at every turn by market diversifiers. If I'm ever there, I'll start evaluating how much of a problem it is. Kind of a "I'll cross that bridge when (and if) I come to it" policy.
Secondly, this current market trend mostly shows in awards given, which I'm not in it for anyway.
Finally, the number of books that get published every year is shockingly miniscule. I can't prove this, but I'd guess good books written by culturally interesting authors are largely getting published in addition to, not instead of, ones written by culturally boring ones.
In the end, pub houses are about the money. I doubt they're shooting themselves in the foot if they smell a potential high profit regardless of what the author looks like.

Has what we describe as medieval style fantasy, or maybe ‘classic fantasy’ had its day? Is it set to become chronically overworked?

These two questions might be related. Part of the reasoning behind encouraging fantasy from different cultures could be to spice up the genre.
I would say this as encouragement: since about the 90's, the modern fiction industry has done just fine, even though the period backdrop of the work is all pretty much the same. Tech has gotten way smarter, but the difference in a book between listening to airpods and a Walkman is negligible.
No one will ever worry that "modern fiction is boring because they all take place in the same time period."
People haven't tired of Victorian Era fiction, even though it's been written since it was current.
Medieval fiction is a wonderful, comfortable setting. As our world keeps getting more and more complicated, it stays as simple and straightforward as ever.

 

[Finchbearer]

On genre specifics, I’d say Tolkien did write medieval inspired fantasy, but considering his work is kind of the prototype of the modern fantasy novel, I’m not sure he would count as part of this discussion.

Brandon Sanderson and GRRM are authors of SFF who started their careers many years ago. If we’re talking about now in 2024, is the market too changed?

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I'd say it's not, but for trad, only the gatekeepers matter. And do the gatekeepers practice what they preach? Who knows. Writing to market is always tricky because it can flip in a heartbeat. I'd say to write what you want to write in the most marketable way possible and hope for the best. It's all a spin of the roulette table, and that's if you manage a quality book to begin with.

On genre specifics, I’d say Tolkien did write medieval inspired fantasy, but considering his work is kind of the prototype of the modern fantasy novel, I’m not sure he would count as part of this discussion.

Brandon Sanderson and GRRM are authors of SFF who started their careers many years ago. If we’re talking about now in 2024, is the market too changed?

 

[Finchbearer]

1-2%? Who the hell is Google trying to fool? Promotion? Potential career? There are way more indies making more money than traditional published authors. The Big 5 do very little to promote a work unless they spend big bucks in a bidding war, which is about like winning the lottery. Typically, they'll promote you through their channels, which is good, but if you imagine them spending bucks on a new book and unproven author? It's rare. The publishing industry chases unicorns and finds 1 about every 5-10 years, and it's the unicorns (and their backlist) that allow publishers to pay newbie fiction authors 5k for the rights to their book. It's a bit like the music industry.

If self-published is saturated, that means publishing itself is saturated.

Are you suggesting that the likelihood of getting traditionally published is less than 1%? I think this would also be believable.

I do think that both markets are over saturated. But they each operate very differently. If we’re comparing Amazon Kindle, which I assume is the most popular self-publishing avenue, then you probably have room for a lot more genre-specific work, and with this you also probably have a lot of potential readers who might be willing to overlook poor quality writing if it means they can still enjoy the niche of the genre. But finding those books is also more difficult. In theory anyone can write a book, upload the manuscript and press publish and voila, you are suddenly a ‘published author’, but from there it’s all on you. It’s not as if your book is going to suddenly become a bestseller. You can also overlook any and all of what agents are or are not looking for with self-publishing which I liken to a double edged sword. But if you can pull those levers and produce something that people will enjoy reading then I can believe that it’s more financially lucrative. It’d be an appealing avenue if all queries came back as rejections, but then I’d also ask myself why the rejections

 

[Finchbearer]

Now I’ve made the thread, I do think that there is a disparity in what people actually want to read and what agents are ‘looking for’. I think I just need to step outside the echo chamber.

 

[pmmg]

I am choosing the Indi route. It is true that the Trad publishers may do some of the work for me, but I want the risk, and I want the rewards that come with it. I am gambling on things they wont. Maybe it will work out. Maybe not. But....

I've got no strings to hold me down
To make me fret, or make me frown
I had some strings, but now I'm free
There are no strings on me

(Rhyme improved)

 

[Finchbearer]

You are not going to convince that rhyming in poetry is necessary.

 

[pmmg]

In theory anyone can write a book, upload the manuscript and press publish and voila, you are suddenly a ‘published author’,

Since, I have high standards, this has not been true for me. My clock is still ticking on when the first will come out. But I am right on the edge.

 

[pmmg]

You are not going to convince that rhyming in poetry is necessary.

Hmmmmm....

A war with rhyme?
How greatly un-fine?
For poems divine
there should be...er...rhyme....

(Actually, it is not my wish to be the defender of all things rhyming...)

 

[Jackarandajam]

I've got no strings to hold me down
To make me fret, or make me frown
I had strings, but now I'm free
There are no strings on me

Best argument for self-publishing I've ever heard. May have changed my mind on this now, not even kidding.

Edit: particularly in the voice of James Spader.

 

[pmmg]

Somehow I missed this part...

And without the discussion turning too politically charged, what do we think of the industry being more currently favourable to underrepresented authors and therefore stories that are not set in Western Europe? As a white European person, this also discourages me. Do I even stand a chance?

But I will connect it to this part

...the style I find myself most drawn to both enjoy reading and writing most of the time but it would seem to me that agents and publishers in particular are actively avoiding this genre in favour of pretty much anything that isn’t medieval inspired fantasy.

And say, this is what the Gatekeepers are getting wrong. You need to bypass them and write to this: 'the style I find myself most drawn to both enjoy reading and writing most of the time'. I bet you are more right then they are.

So Goldie's next rule....Don't let the bastards get you down

 

[pmmg]

The only chance I see in SP is most self-publishers can't afford marketing (myself included) but if the pennies can be saved, the local bookstores visited, etc, there's a real chance of a good book catching on and spreading. With SP it's all about marketing, I think (read "time and money spent on visibility on the front end.")

I think, first and most importantly, I don't currently have a book I'm trying to publish

These two are the great worry, but without the book the rest is just wishful thinking. No reason to be in marketing mode when I am still in producing the book mode. So there is always time to wait and see. For me, I know I will have trouble dividing between writing and marketing, so I am hitting the one hard. When I get to marketing, I intend to dump a lot of energy into it and see what comes. But today is not that day.

I want the series finished first.

Then I'll fret about how to get the next series done.

 

[Mad Swede]

Well, this depends on how you define fantasy as opposed to speculative fiction.

For most readers I've met (who are, obviously, people who read my books) fantasy means a story set in a place which is not this world but which is which is not science based (if that makes sense). Bear in mind here that I'm talking about Nordic readers who have a slightly different culture where sagas play a bigger role. For them fantasy needn't be directly in the style of A Song of Fire and Ice or even the Lord of the Rings, if that's what you mean by medieval fantasy. What it does need to be is sufficiently different in its setting to allow them to escape the daily grind. After that it's the story which gets them going. In other words, it's the quality of the story which matters to my readers as opposed to the setting.

That seems to be reflected in the sorts of stories publishers here look for. Medieval style fantasy is acceptable, they will publish it. But you do need to make sure you're adding something new to the mix as well as writing a good story. And the basics still apply. Good characterisation, good plot, good dialogue, correct grammar and your own writing style. As my editor says, write the story you want to write, if it's good enough someone will buy it.

As for authors from under-represented groups, some of the works coming available now are very good indeed - and they do add a lot of originality and new angles and ways of looking at things. In that sense picking those writers is simple a reflection of the need to add something new to the mix. But that doesn't mean that people like you or me can't get published - we can, but we need to be good writers.