Has medieval style fantasy had its day?

[Demesnedenoir]

It might, might be accurate to say that 1% of people who sign an agent get a publishing deal with the Big 5... But I doubt that, because there are a lot of crappy agents there, heh heh. Plus, there would be a major difference between Big 5 and small press. But even with small press, I dunno. I could've signed with a few different small press publishers, and maybe it would've worked out, but maybe not. They came to me, and I didn't really think they were a good fit. My submissions to agents have been with 7 agents. Got second look from one big agent, but it was still a pass. I want a proven agent or no one.

Indie is far more than Kindle. The only place you won't be competing with very many Indie books is in Major Chain brick-and-mortar stores. How many of them are there? I've had hardcover books sold through Target and other places, made it into a college course and who knows how many libraries. Don't underestimate the sheer weight of published material out there, and that's before the hell on the horizon with AI crap.

!00% truth from my POV is hybrid is the new brass ring, not trad alone. Rowling is effectively hybrid, if I recall right, as she owns her own audiobook rights. Another Indie who went Hybrid threatened to go back to Indie to keep audio rights. I'm not sure how that ended. I have a plan for my hybrid ascendency, but it's a few years out as I'm too damned busy to pull the trigger.

Rowling was rejected how many times for how long? Sanderson, for how many books and how long? Sanderson mentions he'd probably be Indie if he came up in the right time period.

Are you suggesting that the likelihood of getting traditionally published is less than 1%? I think this would also be believable.

I do think that both markets are over saturated. But they each operate very differently. If we’re comparing Amazon Kindle, which I assume is the most popular self-publishing avenue, then you probably have room for a lot more genre-specific work, and with this you also probably have a lot of potential readers who might be willing to overlook poor quality writing if it means they can still enjoy the niche of the genre. But finding those books is also more difficult. In theory anyone can write a book, upload the manuscript and press publish and voila, you are suddenly a ‘published author’, but from there it’s all on you. It’s not as if your book is going to suddenly become a bestseller. You can also overlook any and all of what agents are or are not looking for with self-publishing which I liken to a double edged sword. But if you can pull those levers and produce something that people will enjoy reading then I can believe that it’s more financially lucrative. It’d be an appealing avenue if all queries came back as rejections, but then I’d also ask myself why the rejections

 

[ThinkerX]

Medieval Style Fantasy... Okay, I read a lot (though not as much these past few months). There is a huge number of works that are often lumped into this category, but don't fit the bill. 'Wizard of Earthsea' is definitely fantasy, but not medieval. Nortons 'Witch World' is fantasy, but distinctly lacking in knights, though it does have a feudal element. The universe of the 'Un-beheaded King' has a whole slew of societies ranging from monarchies to republics. Eliot's Crown of Fire,' Lackey's 'Valdemar,' Kerr's 'Devery,' and Feist's Magician' series all sort of fit the 'medieval-type fantasy genre.

These days the market is inundated with such works. I see the same things over and over again. Finding a story where the MC is *NOT* a member of the nobility can be a challenge. There is almost always an ancient evil waiting in the shadows. Grand multipart quests are common. To me, many of these ideas are overdone. (Though I admit to incorporating them into my writing.) A 'familiarity breeds boredom' type of situation.

But my discontent with the present-day fantasy books goes a bit deeper than that. Many have poor worldbuilding. And all too often, the worlds are static. Yes, there are grand invasions and golden ages and upheavals, but the default is almost always feudalism with kings and knights and peasants locked into a preindustrial setting. That gets old after a while.

 

[Genly]

Yeah, I agree. In my as-yet-unpublished novel, I deliberately steered away from depicting a feudal society. Instead, I asked the question: "What would a democratic society look like if magic could replace technology, but only partially, and only after a lot of training?" The result was a society with primitive telecommunications but where magic-based air travel was routine, for instance. Since magic techniques required finesse rather than strength and could be learned equally well by both sexes and almost all ages, women and older people ended up with a much higher status than they might have had in a feudal fantasy world, particularly in the military. There was also a continual political tension between the democratically-elected government and the various magicians' guilds, and a gradual realization that new non-magic technology could be a source of political and military power. Those issues form the main conflicts in the book. Now, getting a publisher...

 

[Finchbearer]

'Wizard of Earthsea' is definitely fantasy, but not medieval.

But my discontent with the present-day fantasy books goes a bit deeper than that. Many have poor worldbuilding. And all too often, the worlds are static. Yes, there are grand invasions and golden ages and upheavals, but the default is almost always feudalism with kings and knights and peasants locked into a preindustrial setting. That gets old after a while.

Wizard of Earthsea is a recent read for me and it was a quick read considering it’s <200 pages, but I came away thinking it was loosely inspired by early medieval culture.

I think there’s often a kind of inevitability in fantasies set in (western) medieval times, that there is going to be a feudal system of sorts. Even if you don’t understand what that is, if you have peasants, knights, castles, bow and arrow, swords, sorcery and dragons, you’ve already assumed this type of setting. I’d like to convince myself that if this setting can be changed up somewhat and made anew, then it still has the potential to be an interesting story, but I am not convinced that the publishing industry thinks this is possible, or at least what they are ‘looking out for’.

 

[Finchbearer]

As for authors from under-represented groups, some of the works coming available now are very good indeed - and they do add a lot of originality and new angles and ways of looking at things. In that sense picking those writers is simple a reflection of the need to add something new to the mix. But that doesn't mean that people like you or me can't get published - we can, but we need to be good writers.

I agree with this in terms of new fantasy coming in from more diverse voices. I’ve read some of the new fantasy releases and there are some exciting themes writers are working with. In terms of an agent putting out that ‘they are looking for submissions from underrepresented groups’, for me that is hard to decipher. I don’t know if that means that therefore they’re not looking for submissions from others or not.

 

[pmmg]

I agree with this in terms of new fantasy coming in from more diverse voices. I’ve read some of the new fantasy releases and there are some exciting themes writers are working with. In terms of an agent putting out that ‘they are looking for submissions from underrepresented groups’, for me that is hard to decipher. I don’t know if that means that therefore they’re not looking for submissions from others or not.

Well...Of course. Why would we expect anything different? Those of different backgrounds and who have interests in things other than Medieval style fantasy have skill too. It should not be surprising that some of it bubbles to the top, and breaks through.

But if that is not your interest, then...I mean, good luck to them, but its not your interest.

When an agent says they are looking for submission from underrepresented groups, they are pretty much saying if your white, don't bother (worse, if your are not checking other boxes). Your works had better be the best thing they've read, or they will pass.

That should not matter to what you want to write. Write the story that is in you. In spite of agents like that, the audience for it is still large. You can succeed without them.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

As pmmg said, there is a strong chance that means they'll ignore your ass if you don't click enough boxes. But, it can also be virtue signaling—like many people use she/her—so it never hurts to submit.

Another important thing to note is that, to paraphrase Sanderson, publishing isn't an old boy's club, it's an old girl's club. The complaint is still the same, but dealing with slightly different sensibilities.

Another note: Romance, the biggest-selling genre in the world, has for all practical purposes, become indie-dominated. 90% of the 6-figure+ indies I've run into write romance of one flavor or another, from raunchy to clean. One or two I met are 7 figure. The key is the same as it is for publishers to make money: backlists, except they make money off their own work, while publishers still make a killing off of Tolkien and other well-read classics.

 

[Mad Swede]

There's a lot of comments in this thread about agents and publishers, some of which show a distinct lack of understanding of the realities of commercial publishing.

My editor once said to me that publishing is a form of venture capitalism. Since no-one is ever quite sure how well a book from a new author will sell (or even a book from someone well known) the publishers take quite a big gamble with their shareholders money when they pick up a book for publication. In my case they sank nearly 1 000 000 SEK into my first book. Given that they get about 150 SEK per book sold (the book sellers take somewhere between 75 and 150 SEK) that tells you how many books they had to sell to break even on that first deal - and how many books I had to help them sell before I earned out my advance and started to get royalties.

So when the publisher picks your book they really have to believe in it - and you, the author. Not only are they going to sink a lot of cash into it, they're going to be working with you for some time - at least 18 months from contract signature to book launch. For the agents, believing in your book is even more important. Those agents have to persuade a publisher to take the book before they get any money at all. That really is a leap of faith, especially when they're taking on an unpublished author.

First impressions matter. Your story needs to be strong. It doesn't need to be perfect, it will be improved during editing. But the basics must be there, and must be right. The publishers will market your book - when they have to sell over 6000 copies to break even on the deal they will make an effort to sell the book. But, you will need to be part of that marketing - so you have to be presentable. You also have to be articulate, willing to make an effort, patient and cooperative. You must also know when to keep your mouth shut - especially when dealing with readers, interviewers and reviewers. There's no easier word to say than "no" - and you don't want your publisher, your agent or (worse still) your readers walking away.

 

[skip.knox]

>it would seem to me
I'm wondering why it seems that way to you. Is it because you have written such stories, submitted them, and have had agents and publishers say while they like your story telling, they don't like the setting?

There are so many reasons why a story gets rejected, I would be very careful and specific about reasons before drawing any general conclusions.

 

[Queshire]

Wait, who are you responding to?

 

[skip.knox]

Wait, who are you responding to?

To the OP. The quote is from the initial post. They stated their impressions of the current state of traditional publishing wrt medieval settings. I was asking on what they based that impression.

 

[Finchbearer]

To the OP. The quote is from the initial post. They stated their impressions of the current state of traditional publishing wrt medieval settings. I was asking on what they based that impression.

What I base my impression on? Scrawling the internet and also keeping my eyes on what’s being traditionally published and reading a selection of newly published fantasy. I haven’t gone through the process myself or else I wouldn’t have made this thread, as no conclusions have been made as of yet.

I have looked further into this, which includes Reddit threads (I’m not a member just a lurker over there) and I understand more of the why regarding agents choice of wording when outlining what they are looking for, but there are still many newly signed authors that are similar to me, so the jury is still out if and until I actually go through the process.

 

[Finchbearer]

Another note: Romance, the biggest-selling genre in the world, has for all practical purposes, become indie-dominated. 90% of the 6-figure+ indies I've run into write romance of one flavor or another, from raunchy to clean. One or two I met are 7 figure.

I’m just curious, when you say ‘6 figure’ or 7 figure’, do you mean sales, profit from one book, or overall sales?

 

[ThinkerX]

>it would seem to me
I'm wondering why it seems that way to you. Is it because you have written such stories, submitted them, and have had agents and publishers say while they like your story telling, they don't like the setting?

There are so many reasons why a story gets rejected, I would be very careful and specific about reasons before drawing any general conclusions.

Skip! You're back! I was getting concerned.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Overall profit, pretty much nobody will make 7 figures off a single book without being oh, George Martin or Stephen King or Brandon Sanderson or somebody of that level of name recognition. I made money off Eve of Snows and plowed it all back into profits—only once was I dumb enough to pay taxes on book sales, heh heh—but profits on a single book weren't sustainable for me. You have the low-hanging fruit customers, and you climb up, but at some point, ads outpace sales. People can make 6 figures off of a single book, or at least they could, but the more likely scenario (and this is for established authors mind you, the odds of doing this as a newb in the current market are slim at best) is to rapid release a 4-6 book series. I saw the books for one author who made over 100k on 3k advertising in a four month span, BUT, and it's a big BUT is that they have a massive mailing list of fans already and would have been at profit without any new advertising.

Another big indie went hybrid and made a killing. And there is still a BIG BUT there, these people came up before the market was as saturated as it is now.

It can still be done if you're social media savvy as hell, but a lot of the advice from those who struck gold in the early days of Kindle mania doesn't apply now.

I’m just curious, when you say ‘6 figure’ or 7 figure’, do you mean sales, profit from one book, or overall sales?

 

[pmmg]

Overall profit, pretty much nobody will make 7 figures off a single book without being oh, George Martin or Stephen King or Brandon Sanderson or...

...Pmmg


Actually, I think I have already spent more than I will ever make back, and the time....I am passing on stuff I could be doing instead and all that. And its not even out yet. I just hope to break even.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Oh, the basic stat is that 96% of books will sell less than 1000 copies. And if you start moving some books, you'll suddenly find them being pirated. Oh, here's a fun set of quotes...

Q. Who is the best selling Simon & Schuster author currently?
A. Right now it’s Colleen Hoover.
Q. Does she have the highest marketing budget that Simon & Schuster pays?
A. No.
Q. Why is that?
A. She’s the queen of TikTok, and so she has a huge following on TikTok.

— Jonathan Karp, CEO, Simon & Schuster

But add this...

There are plenty of books that we spend $1 million on the advance and published them last year and they did not even make the top 1,000 on BookScan… Less than 45 percent of those books [that we spend a million dollars on] end up on that thousand best seller list.

— Madeline Mcintosh, CEO, Penguin Random House US

And this...

The journalist and media personality Piers Morgan had a weaker showing in the United States. Despite his followers on Twitter (8 million) and Instagram (1.8 million), Wake Up: Why the World Has Gone Nuts has sold just 5,650 U.S. print copies since it was published a year ago, according to BookScan.

—The New York Times

So to be clear Eve of Snows has outsold the shit out of a book someone paid millions for, heh heh. And that with my paltry advertising budget.

 

[Gurkhal]

It could be that European medieval fantasy has seen its days on the throne go away. But I don't think that means that the type of fantasy is really going to end as long as there are readers and authors who likes it.

I know that I've moved away from medieval fantasy but that's just a part of history as far as I can see. Things change, either roll with it or be crushed by it.

 

[Finchbearer]

Oh, the basic stat is that 96% of books will sell less than 1000 copies. And if you start moving some books, you'll suddenly find them being pirated. Oh, here's a fun set of quotes...

Q. Who is the best selling Simon & Schuster author currently?
A. Right now it’s Colleen Hoover.
Q. Does she have the highest marketing budget that Simon & Schuster pays?
A. No.
Q. Why is that?
A. She’s the queen of TikTok, and so she has a huge following on TikTok.

— Jonathan Karp, CEO, Simon & Schuster

But add this...

There are plenty of books that we spend $1 million on the advance and published them last year and they did not even make the top 1,000 on BookScan… Less than 45 percent of those books [that we spend a million dollars on] end up on that thousand best seller list.

— Madeline Mcintosh, CEO, Penguin Random House US

And this...

The journalist and media personality Piers Morgan had a weaker showing in the United States. Despite his followers on Twitter (8 million) and Instagram (1.8 million), Wake Up: Why the World Has Gone Nuts has sold just 5,650 U.S. print copies since it was published a year ago, according to BookScan.

—The New York Times

So to be clear Eve of Snows has outsold the shit out of a book someone paid millions for, heh heh. And that with my paltry advertising budget.

As far as I can discern, many traditionally published authors are now also half expected to do their own marketing on socials. I used to be on Instagram but I left that mess a while back. Targeted marketing is a tricky thing to get right, and sometimes, or many times it’s just dumb luck. People gravitate towards personalities, not particularly a product much of the time.

It’s a good job I am not money motivated beyond the basic need to live. I’d be more focused on how many people are actually reading my book, and reviews. Getting quality feedback whether it’s good or bad is what I’d be after.

I think interestingly as a side note, it’s female written fantasy that is kind of having its day right now, but the most popular of it is very much in the YA bracket, and for example of the books that have been adapted to screen, such as Leigh Bardugo’s Shadow and Bone, has been really poorly produced, with terrible screenwriting and even worse acting. And Sarah j Maas’ A Court of Thorns and Roses has had major set backs in terms of screen production.

 

[The Dark One]

I find medieval fantasy pretty lame for the most part. Mainly because it just about always seems to be copying Tolkien (Shanarra, anyone? jeez...)

That said, there're millions of books I've never read which might do a decent job. In the end I would probably enjoy anything that was done well and had some sort of fresh take.

In finding a fresh take on the medieval setting I'd be wary of departing from the underlying mode of production and socio-politics that go with a feudal setting. They do go hand in hand and look wrong when not done properly.

My own view is that there is so much more room to move in a modern setting for fantasy but the OP ought to feel free to write whatever she wants without worrying too much about what agents and publishers might think. The overwhelming likelihood is that your first novel will not be published (by the mainstream press) so just relax, enjoy the journey, find your voice and learn the craft.

It will set you up so much better for the second and third attempts. (It took me 15 years and three novels before a publisher said yes.)