Has medieval style fantasy had its day?

[Finchbearer]

It could be that European medieval fantasy has seen its days on the throne go away. But I don't think that means that the type of fantasy is really going to end as long as there are readers and authors who likes it.

I know that I've moved away from medieval fantasy but that's just a part of history as far as I can see. Things change, either roll with it or be crushed by it.

I’ve read and enjoyed fantasy set in the 19th century recently too, and I’ve read a lot of speculative fiction over the years anyway with some of it veering into dystopian. I also love historical fiction, especially ones set during the medieval period because so often it ends up feeling like your reading fantasy.

I don’t think anyone’s has really matched ASOIAF since it became super mainstream after the success of the series. Although I didn’t really like the series.

 

[The Dark One]

I’ve read and enjoyed fantasy set in the 19th century recently too, and I’ve read a lot of speculative fiction over the years anyway with some of it veering into dystopian. I also love historical fiction, especially ones set during the medieval period because so often it ends up feeling like your reading fantasy.

I don’t think anyone’s has really matched ASOIAF since it became super mainstream after the success of the series. Although I didn’t really like the series.

This interests me. Why wouldn't you enjoy medieval historical fiction for its own sake?

Not at all suggesting this is you, FB, but there seems to have developed an incapacity for some readers to distinguish between medieval fantasy and fiction. I remember some major debate somewhere which depressed the hell out of me as people argued the merits of medieval fantasy and fiction, without seeming to appreciate that the two are utterly different re fact and magic.

Even worse, when I sent my hist fic ms to my agent back in 2016, she accused me of ripping off Game of Thrones! I've not even read GoT but that's not the point... my novel was set in the 1060s covering events leading up to the Battle of Hastings. It was a reinterpretation of the Bayeux Tapestry and very carefully researched. I even went to all of the physical locations which featured in the story to get my research perfect, yet somehow my agent thought I was copying GoT...

After a brief conversation, she was no longer my agent.

 

[Finchbearer]

This interests me. Why wouldn't you enjoy medieval historical fiction for its own sake?

Not at all suggesting this is you, FB, but there seems to have developed an incapacity for some readers to distinguish between medieval fantasy and fiction. I remember some major debate somewhere which depressed the hell out of me as people argued the merits of medieval fantasy and fiction, without seeming to appreciate that the two are utterly different re fact and magic.

Even worse, when I sent my hist fic ms to my agent back in 2016, she accused me of ripping off Game of Thrones! I've not even read GoT but that's not the point... my novel was set in the 1060s covering events leading up to the Battle of Hastings. It was a reinterpretation of the Bayeux Tapestry and very carefully researched. I even went to all of the physical locations which featured in the story to get my research perfect, yet somehow my agent thought I was copying GoT...

After a brief conversation, she was no longer my agent.

I’ve read more historical fiction than fantasy, and much of that has influenced the way I approach my fantasy writing (so far anyway) and it isn’t because I’m searching for historical fiction that feels like fantasy, but it’s more of what draws me to that time period. There’s often more of a crossover between superstition, folklore and what people actually believed was true, and the further back in time you go, there’s more of a sense of that, which I like to explore with my fantasy writing. I can separate the two, but I also like combining the two.

Obviously if I’m reading something by Jane Austen, or fiction set during WWII, then that certainly does not feel like fantasy.

I’d does indeed sound like it was just the wrong agent because there’s a huge market for historical fiction set during that time period, such as The Last Kingdom…of which George RR Martin says he was inspired by.

 

[The Dark One]

Yes, I combined the two a little also due to the medieval mind believing in a partly magical world. (Studied that bipolar mindset at uni.) My main female character was the last of the druids which is feasible for the C11. She certainly believed in magic, and there is the flavour and ambience of magic in the book... but no actual magic.

 

[Finchbearer]

This interests me. Why wouldn't you enjoy medieval historical fiction for its own sake?

Not at all suggesting this is you, FB, but there seems to have developed an incapacity for some readers to distinguish between medieval fantasy and fiction. I remember some major debate somewhere which depressed the hell out of me as people argued the merits of medieval fantasy and fiction, without seeming to appreciate that the two are utterly different re fact and magic.

Even worse, when I sent my hist fic ms to my agent back in 2016, she accused me of ripping off Game of Thrones! I've not even read GoT but that's not the point... my novel was set in the 1060s covering events leading up to the Battle of Hastings. It was a reinterpretation of the Bayeux Tapestry and very carefully researched. I even went to all of the physical locations which featured in the story to get my research perfect, yet somehow my agent thought I was copying GoT...

After a brief conversation, she was no longer my agent.

Hey, does that mean you’ve been to Stamford Bridge??

 

[The Dark One]

Hey, does that mean you’ve been to Stamford Bridge??

Yes. Went on a pilgrimage to find the battlefield but no luck.

I gazed out over the river from the little memorial plaque and decided that would do. It features in the story as I describe the landscape there and the battle happens either side of the river. If you know the place, Hardrada dies on the very spot the plaque is set.

Fulford Gate is also in the story.

 

[Finchbearer]

I live near Stamford Bridge. There’s so much history around here to indulge in, it’s a lot of fun.

Writing fantasy also kind of takes the extensive research out of the equation for me! There’s one story I’ve worked on previously that mixes fact and fiction of the legend of Robin Hood which I’ve set during the reign of King John, and have Robin as being from Wakefield rather than Nottingham as he was thought to be…but I’m not a historian, and there’s so much research that would need to be done in order to get it where it would need to be.

 

[The Dark One]

I live near Stamford Bridge. There’s so much history around here to indulge in, it’s a lot of fun.

Writing fantasy also kind of takes the extensive research out of the equation for me! There’s one story I’ve worked on previously that mixes fact and fiction of the legend of Robin Hood which I’ve set during the reign of King John, and have Robin as being from Wakefield rather than Nottingham as he was thought to be…but I’m not a historian, and there’s so much research that would need to be done in order to get it where it would need to be.

Love York and its surrounds. The real England.

Although I also love Cornwall, and London is the coolest city on the planet.

 

[Prince of Spires]

There's a lot to unpack in this thread....

Firstly, medieval fantasy isn't going anywhere, regardless of what people on soapboxes are telling you. For proof, just go to any medieval castle or church and see how many people visit them. As long as kids like playing knights or princesses, then there will be medieval fantasy.

It's also a very natural era for fantasy. During the renaisance and enlightenment, the belief system shifted away from the more magical world to a more rule based, science world. Magic fits easily into the medieval period. It's also much harder to fit magic into a later setting in many cases.

There are plenty of authors who write medieval fantasy and do very well. The Stormlight Archive is currently the biggest selling new fantasy series, and that's definitely medieval inspired. But there are plenty of others, both established and new.

However, there is a shift, and that is that medieval fantasy is no longer the only kid in town. Writers and readers are branching out. Where 20 years ago you would either have medieval inspired fantasy or urban fantasy, you now get a lot more different flavors. There's steampunk and flintlock fantasy, lit RPG (which to be fair can still be medieval inspired...), asian and african inspired fantasy. The genre as a whole has grown, and settings have gotten more diverse. So there is still room for medieval fantasy, and write that if that's what you're interested in. But there is just also a whole lot of different fantasy out there.

As for publishing, I think the depiction of Indie Publishing here isn't completely up to date. Yes, there is plenty of trash out there (though trad publishers put out some terrible works as well). However, the bigger indie authors, the ones who actually get sales, are putting out books that are of the same standard as the best trad books. They are indistinguishable from trad novels for the reader in pretty much every way.

And readers these days expect that. Yes, a bad book might still attract some sales. And if it's in Kindle Unlimited (where the book is basically free for the reader), the reader might give the author a bit of slack. However, they won't pick up a second book for that author. There are too many great books out there.

In my case they sank nearly 1 000 000 SEK into my first book

While I don't doubt the number, I do think it's a ridiculous amount if it's only production costs. A quick conversion makes that close to $100.000. Even if I had that sum, I wouldn't know what to spend it on to get to that figure.

Back of the envelope calculation:
- high end cover: $3.000 (and that's like a custom drawn art cover, pretty much the highest end cover I could come up with. For a great, but cheaper cover I can get an amazing one for $750).
- Editing for a 120k words novel:

• Manuscript critique: $1.000
• Developmental editing: $.08 per word, or $9,600 total
• Basic copyediting: $.018 per word, or $2,160 total
• Proofreading: $.0113, or $1,356 total

And those are pretty much all on the top end prices(and not what many beginning indie authors should or do pay). 2ct per word for developmental editing is common enough for instance.

Added together, that gives me $17.000 to create the novel. They probably also pay for interior formatting. An indie author can get that for something like $50. Though they'll probably spend 10 times that number, Which brings the total to $17.500

I wouldn't know where they'd spend the other 82.500 on. Except marketing which in all fairness should pay for itself. If you're spending $2 to make $1, then you're doing it wrong. Now, trad publishers probably inflate these numbers for all sorts of reasons. But even doubling the spend means they're overspending by $60k. Which is probably one of the issues trad publishing has.

 

[Gurkhal]

I’ve read and enjoyed fantasy set in the 19th century recently too, and I’ve read a lot of speculative fiction over the years anyway with some of it veering into dystopian. I also love historical fiction, especially ones set during the medieval period because so often it ends up feeling like your reading fantasy.

I don’t think anyone’s has really matched ASOIAF since it became super mainstream after the success of the series. Although I didn’t really like the series.

Cheers! The 19th century is an under used basis for a setting but there are stuff out there, as you rightly point out.

As for historical fiction I will confess that this is what I try to lie as close to as I can too. The main reason as to why I write fantasy is that minutia mistake in research won't damn the story and I have an incredible freedom with shaping the story, characters and surrounding setting. Not to mention that events can take a different direction than the reader can check up on Wikipedia before even reading the story.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

$2 in ads for $1 in sales equals "doing it wrong" is arguable. With advertising costs on anything effective, if you only have one book available is it very difficult to break even or go into profit. Read-through is where most folks make their money. Plus, there are a lot of factors involved.

If I'd stopped advertising because I was losing money, Eve of Snows would never have made money.

 

[pmmg]

Just to follow up, but it could be a viable strategy to lose money in one area to make it in another. So, if I advertise one book and it does not take off, but its starts to build the base, which in later days (years) can snowball into selling my fifth book... it will seem on paper that it was a bad investment, but in action, it paid off.

 

[Mad Swede]

While I don't doubt the number, I do think it's a ridiculous amount if it's only production costs. A quick conversion makes that close to $100.000. Even if I had that sum, I wouldn't know what to spend it on to get to that figure.

Back of the envelope calculation:
- high end cover: $3.000 (and that's like a custom drawn art cover, pretty much the highest end cover I could come up with. For a great, but cheaper cover I can get an amazing one for $750).
- Editing for a 120k words novel:

• Manuscript critique: $1.000
• Developmental editing: $.08 per word, or $9,600 total
• Basic copyediting: $.018 per word, or $2,160 total
• Proofreading: $.0113, or $1,356 total

And those are pretty much all on the top end prices(and not what many beginning indie authors should or do pay). 2ct per word for developmental editing is common enough for instance.

Added together, that gives me $17.000 to create the novel. They probably also pay for interior formatting. An indie author can get that for something like $50. Though they'll probably spend 10 times that number, Which brings the total to $17.500

I wouldn't know where they'd spend the other 82.500 on. Except marketing which in all fairness should pay for itself. If you're spending $2 to make $1, then you're doing it wrong. Now, trad publishers probably inflate these numbers for all sorts of reasons. But even doubling the spend means they're overspending by $60k. Which is probably one of the issues trad publishing has.

No, you don't understand commercial publishing. First, I got an advance - 70 000 SEK. Second, editing takes several passes, not just one. For my book it cost 90 000 SEK. Cover design 45 000 SEK. One of the things you've missed is printing costs - hardback and trade paperback. Three hundred hardback copies on 170g paper - 80 000 SEK. Four thousand trade paperback copies on 170g paper - 620 000 SEK. (The hardback is needed if the book is to go into libraries, the covers are printed in offset litho with spot colours.) To this you can then add marketing costs and the cost of storage and distribution. This is what it costs to publish a book with a reasonably high level of quality - which is what you need if you want to see it sell in a physical book store. And those readers who want a signed copy do like a nice looking book.

And yes, they have sold all those books, in fact they've sold more than that what with the re-prints. I get royalities. Between them my four books have (so far) sold a little over 41 000 copies across Scandinavia, and e-book sales add another 30 000 or so to that. Yes, I have been fortunate. No, I don't make enough to live on my writing.

And please bear in mind that despite all the marketing my publisher does I also have to do quite a lot of leg work. Things like book signings, interviews, answering e-mails from readers etc. You can't ignore that, not if you want the books to sell. And then there's writing the next book. It all takes time - my spare time.

 

[Finchbearer]

Just to follow up, but it could be a viable strategy to lose money in one area to make it in another. So, if I advertise one book and it does not take off, but its starts to build the base, which in later days (years) can snowball into selling my fifth book... it will seem on paper that it was a bad investment, but in action, it paid off.

Wouldn’t you want people to be invested in the first book in order to want to read the others if it’s part of a series?

 

[pmmg]

Well...Of course.... But....

Just quick math, suppose I spend $1000 in advertising book 1, to gain 500 readers, and for each reader, I make back $1.00 in profit.

I make $500 for my $1000 investment.

But then those same readers also buy book 2, with the same math, only I spend $0 advertising book 2. I've made back my $1000 investment.

The same happens for book 3...I am $500 ahead, though I took a loss on book 1.


Course, the math would never really work out like that, but the principle is the same.

And if I expand...not just a series, suppose I have several series's. And I have a following.... Investment in one, may help sales in the other.


Which is all to say, an upfront cost may have future rewards. There would be no way to really know till you get there though. You have to take a risk.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Not half expected, nor just on socials, but paid advertising. Let's put it this way... a publishing house might spend $1 million on the rights to a book and spend 35k on advertising. How much do you think they'll spend on a book they pay 5k for?

When I semi-retire from regular life and if I decide to go to an agent, it will be with a business/marketing plan in hand, my editor's name, publicist's name, and marketing budget. The goal will be hybrid, not straight trad. And I will have ~10 books on my backlist before I go wild.

Why? Because I've figured out that I simply don't have the time to do it right. I can do my real life and write books, but I can't do real life, write books, and market with all the travel and whatnot that I need. In a few years, I'll have both the time and money, then it's game on.

As far as I can discern, many traditionally published authors are now also half expected to do their own marketing on socials. I used to be on Instagram but I left that mess a while back. Targeted marketing is a tricky thing to get right, and sometimes, or many times it’s just dumb luck. People gravitate towards personalities, not particularly a product much of the time.

It’s a good job I am not money motivated beyond the basic need to live. I’d be more focused on how many people are actually reading my book, and reviews. Getting quality feedback whether it’s good or bad is what I’d be after.

I think interestingly as a side note, it’s female written fantasy that is kind of having its day right now, but the most popular of it is very much in the YA bracket, and for example of the books that have been adapted to screen, such as Leigh Bardugo’s Shadow and Bone, has been really poorly produced, with terrible screenwriting and even worse acting. And Sarah j Maas’ A Court of Thorns and Roses has had major set backs in terms of screen production.

 

[pmmg]

I dont get the impression you are on many socials Dems. Are you doing more than paying for ads with what you do?

 

[Genly]

This thread is really insightful, because novice writers usually don't get this kind of inside information on the publication process.

And I do agree that medieval fantasy isn't going anywhere any time soon. It's just that these days it's not the only game in town.

 

[pmmg]

This thread is really insightful, because novice writers usually don't get this kind of inside information on the publication process.

And I do agree that medieval fantasy isn't going anywhere any time soon. It's just that these days it's not the only game in town.

Yeah....I think part of it is, it seems like a zero sum game. For one to rise, another has to fade, but the better answer is, 'come on in, the waters warm.' Cause, we can write both, and the market will do what it does. And just as there are many types of writers, there are many types of readers. No reason one has to move aside for the other.

 

[ThinkerX]

I have tried ads on Facebook, Amazon, and elsewhere. I have taken out triple-digit promo spots more than once, and more double-digit promo spots than I care to think about. The vast majority of those promos resulted in single-digit sales. Then I noticed that properly targeted low-end promos - ten or twelve bucks - produced sales equal to or better than the more expensive options.

Hence, my current 'cheap lunch' strategy - three or four promos a month, each in the $8-12 range, plus the occasional ordinary 'unboosted' post to FB book groups. Since going that route, my sales have gone up slightly = but are still pathetic.