Is this a 'real' thing? (In reality, not just romanticized fiction)

[Naruzeldamaster]

So, I've been playing it 'fast and loose' with my fantasy based world, there's a nice blend of 'regular' modernized tech (They have things like small portable tvs and soda machines, but also much more advanced things are legitimate magi-tech) but one thing I wrote recently I'm somewhat curious about. It has to do with swordsmanship.

At least in my story swordsmen/women are judged not just by how strong they are, but how pristine their body is. As in, they never let their opponents get close enough to wound them in the first place, meaning they're either superbly skilled or insanely powerful. Maybe the skill gap between a given swordsman/woman and their opponents is just that deep etc.

But that got me thinking is it an actual thing in real life? Like were Swordsmen considered 'Barbaric' if they had too many flesh wounds? Maybe they were seen as badges of Honor? etc.

Bear in mind this is a realm where a skilled enough swordsman can use their willpower to use a metal toothpick like a real ass sword, provided they had the intent and focus to prevent said toothpick from snapping in two on contact with the real blade.

 

[ThinkerX]

People who play with sharp objects tend to get hurt bad. 'Pristine Body' doesn't happen. Injuries that impair strength and agility do happen.

 

[pmmg]

Someone with lots of battle scars would look like someone who's been in a lot of battles. If they aren't dead, they probably know a thing of too.

Consider the phrase...you learn from your mistakes.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Personal opinion, but I doubt you'd see a lot of swordmen with scars. Simple reason is, you'd be dead after one or two. Swords (and other weapons) are deadly things. They only give you a scar if you're lucky. Otherwise, they'd either outright kill you (if you're lucky) or main you in such a way that you bleed out slowly or end up with a large wound that probably gets infected and then the infection kills you.

There aren't really exceptions. Duels to first blood maybe. But they still cary the risk of just outright killing you. And how many duels without protection and using blunt swords would anyone realistically fight?

 

[El_d_ray]

Very brief search through the internet led me to believe that viewing scars as something repulsive or ugly is a more modern tendency as we view body beauty as something that suppose to be preserve in the most untouched way. In a very simple manner: our society allows us to be unharmed for a significant period of our lives which creates an image of un-scarred person as attractive. And in the earlier scars where more a sign of your profession, as the more you work with something, the more it reflects on your body.

I really didn't found any culture (except somewhat beginning of 21 century) that have a view of scars as something shameful or bad.
Even with swordwoman/man who is incredibly skilful, it is incredibly hard to believe to not receive any scars during the training. As in, if you ever learned to play a guitar it literally shows on your fingers even after initial steps.

There should be scars that have symbolism of a shame, but I can't remember specific ones right now, and can speculate that marks of the collars or some sort of branding, but I'd need more time to look for examples,

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Someone with lots of battle scars would look like someone who's been in a lot of battles. If they aren't dead, they probably know a thing of too.

Consider the phrase...you learn from your mistakes.

Considering his backstory, he does have one significant scar on his back (though he does wear thick armor plating to 'hide' it) from the time he dueled his 'mentor' with real swords. Otherwise his body is pristine, and if he does get scars they're only surface level scars that heal within a few months.

Even knowing his origins and longevity, she is shocked to see that he's alive when she sees him again. The kind of strike she laid upon him (should have) ensured he died.

Personal opinion, but I doubt you'd see a lot of swordmen with scars. Simple reason is, you'd be dead after one or two. Swords (and other weapons) are deadly things. They only give you a scar if you're lucky. Otherwise, they'd either outright kill you (if you're lucky) or main you in such a way that you bleed out slowly or end up with a large wound that probably gets infected and then the infection kills you.

There aren't really exceptions. Duels to first blood maybe. But they still cary the risk of just outright killing you. And how many duels without protection and using blunt swords would anyone realistically fight?

I was going to have it that he received one near fatal blow after completing his training with his 'mentor' where he finally challenged her with swords he crafted himself. (He's also a blacksmith) Before he blacks out. She jokes about 'sparing' him because he was 'just so adorable' which, really shattered his heart, considering up to that point they had an 'honest' relationship. He was nothing more than a plaything to her.

 

[Malik]

Swordfighting isn't sport fencing. It's the incidental damage that wears a fighter down. More often than not--especially in armor--sprains, bruises, concussions, fractures, dislocations, and broken pieces of kit all add up until finally one or the other gets overwhelmed and makes a fatal mistake. It all leaves marks.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Swordfighting isn't sport fencing. It's the incidental damage that wears a fighter down. More often than not--especially in armor--sprains, bruises, concussions, fractures, dislocations, and broken pieces of kit all add up until finally one or the other gets overwhelmed and makes a fatal mistake. It all leaves marks.

The thing with this guy, he's lived (almost) ten decades. Long enough for 'myths' to be written about him based on his appearances and skills. Many of them are false, but his raw power is very real, not just as a swordsman. (Because the principals of swordsmanship are tied to the principals of magic in my world)
He does have one near fatal wound, that left a permanent scar, and he's made it a point not to appear until less severe wounds have properly healed, mostly to fuel the myths about him. He's a bit of an oddball and a showman, that knows a thing or two about 'publicity' and pulls a few silly stunts now and then just for presentation, but his power and skill are very real. There aren't too many swordsmen in the realm that can 'match' him, and the few that are he either hasn't met yet, or are the mentor that delivered the near fatal wound.

 

[pmmg]

I would add, though it does not appear in fiction much, but scars do take their toll. They cut into things and make them less functional. Depending on location, they are prone to reopening. I cut my thumb by accident once with a knife, and I must have hit a nerve. I've lost feeling in a portion of it. Imagine if I was hit at the shoulder, or the armpit. How many nerves would be severed then and how long to get feeling back? if ever?

I have never seen a boxer get cut above his eye and come back to win the fight. Mike Tyson got head butted twice by Holyfield and got both eyes cut open. After that, he had a weak spot. The scars would open up in every fight after. That happens to a lot of boxers if they get scar tissue around their eyes. It just never seems to go away.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Erik paced in front of his throne, wearing only a pair of dudetastically faded jeans. The corded muscles in his arms flexed and shifted under his battle-scarred skin as he clenched and relaxed his big fists.

Etienne scrubbed his face and body red with the cold water and a bar of soap in a burlap pouch, dragging the abrasive fabric over the traceries of scars that covered his body. They were lividly pale against his work-tanned skin. He never had them in his dreams. Bess had never known them. His arms, his chest, his face… all covered with scrolling arcane glyphs, carved into his flesh as he lay at the mercy of his enemies. What they were for he would hopefully never know for certain. He was no magician and the markings held no more meaning for him than as a memory of agony and humiliation. As painful as the carving had been, the remedy had been worse. Dwarven runes, branded brown into his flesh, covered and negated the magic inherent in the glyph scars. Those he has endured willingly, silently, and paid a dear price for the bargain. He rinsed the soap from his marked skin and pulled his hair up into a ponytail, then quickly pulled on his jeans.

Chicks dig scars, and Etienne is the fan favorite Book Boyfriend of the series.. Just sayin'.

I would add, though it does not appear in fiction much, but scars do take their toll. They cut into things and make them less functional. Depending on location, they are prone to reopening. I cut my thumb by accident once with a knife, and I must have hit a nerve. I've lost feeling in a portion of it. Imagine if I was hit at the shoulder, or the armpit. How many nerves would be severed then and how long to get feeling back? if ever?

I have never seen a boxer get cut above his eye and come back to win the fight. Mike Tyson got head butted twice by Holyfield and got both eyes cut open. After that, he had a weak spot. The scars would open up in every fight after. That happens to a lot of boxers if they get scar tissue around their eyes. It just never seems to go away.

A few years ago my C5 vertebrae collapsed onto my C6 and crunched the nerve running to my left arm. In a single stroke, I lost most of the use of it from the crunch, over the crest of my shoulder, and all the way to my fingertips. The pain was truly stunning. 10 months of that pain. I lived on hot pads because they were the only thing that worked to soothe me, some. I stumbled into one of the best neurosurgeons in this part of the country - Irish! - and when I popped up from surgery I had strength back in my hand, that fast. The only thing I didn't get back was the feeling in my skin. It's extremely weird, but it's a lot like having a permanent opera glove.

 

[Mad Swede]

In combat, whether you're using knives, swords, guns or baseball bats, it's usually the combination of shock and blood loss which kills you. You may not think a baseball bat could lead to blood loss, but hit someone in the right place with one of those (or even a 2 x 4 piece of wood) and you'll cause some serious internal bleeding.

Surviving injuries is all about treating blood loss and shock (I assume the victim is breathing). If the person survives then a lot depends on how bad the injury is.

A very deep cut or gash won't heal properly without stitching, so if the injury isn't stitched then the result will be permanent loss of muscle and mobility. Shallower cuts don't lead to the same muscle loss, but the scars themselves can open up again. In both cases infection is a risk, and if an infected injury is not treated properly then death is a likely outcome (especially in combination with blood loss and shock).

Broken bones are likely to lead to nerve damage, especially if the break is complex or of it isn't set back correctly. Nerve damage can result in anything from loss of feeling to an inability to use a limb. Things like broken ribs can cause lung punctures, and those are fatal if not treated quickly. Head injuries caused by being hit on the head (with a sword, mace or club) are usually fatal, and if the person survives they're likely to be left with some sort of severe disability (memory loss, speech loss etc).

Having limited or no use of a limb, or suffering from the effects of a head injury, is usually enough to put an end to a career as a fighter/soldier. So in reality there weren't many fighters with lots of scars, either because people didn't live long enough to get a collection of scars or because an injury left them with a permanant disability.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

In combat, whether you're using knives, swords, guns or baseball bats, it's usually the combination of shock and blood loss which kills you. You may not think a baseball bat could lead to blood loss, but hit someone in the right place with one of those (or even a 2 x 4 piece of wood) and you'll cause some serious internal bleeding.

Surviving injuries is all about treating blood loss and shock (I assume the victim is breathing). If the person survives then a lot depends on how bad the injury is.

A very deep cut or gash won't heal properly without stitching, so if the injury isn't stitched then the result will be permanent loss of muscle and mobility. Shallower cuts don't lead to the same muscle loss, but the scars themselves can open up again. In both cases infection is a risk, and if an infected injury is not treated properly then death is a likely outcome (especially in combination with blood loss and shock).

Broken bones are likely to lead to nerve damage, especially if the break is complex or of it isn't set back correctly. Nerve damage can result in anything from loss of feeling to an inability to use a limb. Things like broken ribs can cause lung punctures, and those are fatal if not treated quickly. Head injuries caused by being hit on the head (with a sword, mace or club) are usually fatal, and if the person survives they're likely to be left with some sort of severe disability (memory loss, speech loss etc).

Having limited or no use of a limb, or suffering from the effects of a head injury, is usually enough to put an end to a career as a fighter/soldier. So in reality there weren't many fighters with lots of scars, either because people didn't live long enough to get a collection of scars or because an injury left them with a permanant disability.

In this particular case (for my swordsman) the wound was deep enough to leave a permanent scar and make him pass out, but since it was a magical attack, with the intent to 'curse' him, he's survived, never mind his own survivability due to being a 'dragon' being. (Dragon is a title for certain members of species in my story) He's a humanoid dragon (Though the 'dragon' features only manifest with immense amounts of mana) and she essentially cut one of his 'wings' off.

He was too trusting to a very wicked woman (who is also a 'dragon' but the reader doesn't know this yet) who played 'games' with just about every person she found intriguing enough. She taught him swordsmanship and when she was 'done' with him she crushed his hopes of any form of relationship or trust with other Dragons.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

So, it sounds like you're talking about scars like these? They're pretty extreme and may even have an impact on his mobility, depending on how he heals.

 

[Mad Swede]

So, it sounds like you're talking about scars like these? They're pretty extreme and may even have an impact on his mobility, depending on how he heals.

View attachment 4085

In reality muscle damage like that would probably prevent you standing properly. You certainly wouldn't be able to stand while that sort of injury was healing, and you'd have trouble lifting or swinging things with your arms once the injury had healed.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

So, it sounds like you're talking about scars like these? They're pretty extreme and may even have an impact on his mobility, depending on how he heals.

View attachment 4085

I was imagining something similar (though not as devastating) yeah, the swords used in that particular dual were remarkably thin (fantasy setting where that kind of thing is possible, the metal he used for the swords is very durable and sturdy) even for a samurai sword. He's still quite mobile for his old age (He's roughly 900 years old, looks like he's 30) but unless he's doing hand to hand combat, he takes great care to not open the wound again while sword fighting. It's wide enough that you could run a finger along it but not much wider. (the wound itself looks similar to this pic though) I like to imagine that even though he's stubborn he takes months to recover after each battle he goes through to make sure the wound doesn't reopen.

This is a setting where if you have enough mana, you can push your body pretty hard, provided you have the will power to do so, he does frequently risk opening the wound again and damaging those nerves. But he's pretty stubborn about treating opponents to a fair dual. Introducing him to someone who actually cares about him you know, living, was probably a good move on my part, otherwise he'd end up dying a samurai death somewhere with no real friends to speak of after a duel.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I've got some thoughts on this, but instead of talking theoretical, let's see the execution. Do you have any of this on the page, yet?

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I've got some thoughts on this, but instead of talking theoretical, let's see the execution. Do you have any of this on the page, yet?

yeah but I've not gotten to the part when he reveals his sword wound to the character that takes a shine to him. Needless to say she's pretty shocked that he's able to fight like he can with a wound like his. Plan on tackling that bit tonight and probably finishing that chapter. The whole chapter is a setup chapter for how powerful 'dragons' can be in spite of such wounds. It also sets up that the 'dragons' can be from any species, not just the Dragon Kin (which are humanoids but more dragon like) it also sets up some other things for a bit later.

 

[Malik]

I'm a former amateur boxer and retired Army, with nearly 10 years in Special Operations. I've been beaten up, blown up, shot, stabbed, poisoned, kicked by a camel, I've had my neck broken, and I once spent a week in a coma and months in a wheelchair. My nose has been broken so many times I look like a Russian mob enforcer. There's not enough unscarred tissue on me to make a lampshade. Ancillary damage adds up.

I'm now in my 50s, and parts of me swell up and turn odd colors for no reason at all. I just wake up and shit's f*cked up, and that's what the day's about. Some parts don't move the way they should, and others move way more than they should. Some days I need a cane; every few months a toenail falls off and we still don't know why. I'm on a dozen different medications, not counting occipital nerve blocks for migraines--literally, needles stabbed into my skull--every 10-12 weeks, and 20-30 bi-weekly numbing injections in my back and neck. I see a sports massage therapist and a physical therapist each once a week, and I'm in the gym literally every day. And all this is just to stay ambulatory. That's saying nothing about daily weed and alcohol for combat-related PTSD.

If I wanted to get back in my old fighting shape? Impossible. Am I functional? We run a small homestead. A year ago, I dragged a deer nearly 100 meters up a hillside with an improvised rope harness, and I can carry a straw bale on my shoulder.

Still, I figure I have only two good ass-kickings left in me; one to give, one to take. I'm saving them. I'm done fighting. Combat is HARD.

I forget where I read this, I believe it was Asimov, but it holds true: "the human life is not a thing easily taken; most people are damned determined not to part company with theirs." Taking it away hand to hand involves a ridiculous amount of effort. Swords are not lightsabers. Further, I have seen men live through astonishing bullshit, and all it's done is make me want to one-up them, because that's how soldiers are wired. I worked with a guy who'd been shot FIVE TIMES in one firefight and swore he was alive only because he didn't want to give them the satisfaction. While recovering from injuries, I roomed across the hall from a Marine who'd been Gus Fring'd by an IED, lost an eye and half his face. They had to rebuild one side of his face using skin from his ass. Dude had the best attitude of anyone I've ever met.

Someone write a book about a guy in his 50's, limping his way through an adventure, sitting the hell down after a fight and smoking weed for a few hours because his neck is killing him. I'll buy it.

I'd write it, but my back hurts . . .

 

[pmmg]

Excellent article on armor and excellent post, as usual for Malik. Specially liked the compound curves section .

Malik is a site treasure.