Women in Fantasy

[Amanita]

I think readers kind of want the traditional damsel in need of a knight in shining armor to come rescue her. The princess who knows how to handle a eligant party, but doesn't know which end of the sword to hold on too. It is interesting that even when a woman(Queen) rules, the women are treated no better.

Well, I definitely don't want the kind of characters described above. (At least, if the cliche isn't used very well ) But that partly due to the fact, that I'm not a big fan of the traditional fantasy princesses anyway. Sometimes I think, I'm rather wrong in the fantasy genre, especially because I prefer democracies or dictatorships to kingdoms, but where else to go to with the magic?

 

[Steerpike]

You do have readers who want that traditional sort of thing. I'm not opposed to it, but it has to be very well done to hold my interest.

I prefer more intriguing female characters, such as the title character in Kristin Cashore's excellent YA fantasy, Fire.

 

[Reaver]

You do have readers who want that traditional sort of thing. I'm not opposed to it, but it has to be very well done to hold my interest.

I prefer more intriguing female characters, such as the title character in Kristin Cashore's excellent YA fantasy, Fire.

I have to agree with you here, Steerpike, my main character is called Imani, a 19 year old woman who is both a student of history and the combat arts. She's smart, quick-witted and deadly with everything from swords to crossbows.

 

[Steerpike]

I have to agree with you here, Steerpike, my main character is called Imani, a 19 year old woman who is both a student of history and the combat arts. She's smart, quick-witted and deadly with everything from swords to crossbows.

That sounds like an intriguing character, Reaver. I like the pairing of something like history with the physical skill in combat, to show development of the mind as well as the body. Being a student of history could give her a number of strengths to draw on in terms of problem solving.

 

[Reaver]

That sounds like an intriguing character, Reaver. I like the pairing of something like history with the physical skill in combat, to show development of the mind as well as the body. Being a student of history could give her a number of strengths to draw on in terms of problem solving.

Thanks, Steerpike. That's exactly what I'm aiming for when telling her story. Say...you've probably had someone ask, but can I use your name for an Elfin warrior? Seriously. It's a very cool name.

 

[Steerpike]

Thanks, Steerpike. That's exactly what I'm aiming for when telling her story. Say...you've probably had someone ask, but can I use your name for an Elfin warrior? Seriously. It's a very cool name.

Reaver: feel free to use the name, but you should know that it is actually the name of the antagonist in Mervyn Peake's brilliant Gormenghast books, which are non-magical fantasies published in the 1940s and 1950s. Others might recognize it.

Here are a couple of cool passages from Wikipedia where Peake described Steerpike:

If ever he had harboured a conscience in his tough narrow breast he had by now dug out and flung away the awkward thing - flung it so far away that were he ever to need it again he could never find it. High-shouldered to a degree little short of malformation, slender and adroit of limb and frame, his eyes close-set and the colour of dried blood, he is climbing the spiral staircase of the soul of Gormenghast, bound for some pinnacle of the itching fancy - some wild, invulnerable eyrie best known to himself; where he can watch the world spread out below him, and shake exultantly his clotted wings.

and

Limb by limb, it appeared that he was sound enough, but the sum of these several members accrued to an unexpectedly twisted total. His face was pale like clay and save for his eyes, mask-like. These eyes were set very close together, and were small, dark red, and of startling concentration.

Peake is wordy

 

[Jabrosky]

Let me confess to an obsession that has been driving me insane for years: I want more than anything else in the world to publish a fantasy story featuring a strong and beautiful African female protagonist who kicks butt and has an interracial relationship. I feel that strong yet romantically desirable black female characters are too scarce in fantasy or any other genre (or in any kind of creative media in general) and that getting such a story out there would present a much-needed sympathetic portrayal of a black woman in the media. The fact that I haven't been able to get such a story completed or even decide exactly what my plot or setting is going to be has been a continual source of frustration for me and I am angry at myself for lacking the self-discipline to pull it off successfully.

 

[Ravana]

I would submit that it's not the task itself which is demeaning

Didn't say they were, just that they're as likely to receive short shrift in fantasy writing as they did in medieval Europe. Even if you make the men "second-class" citizens in a story, as long as you keep all the traditional gender-linked tasks the same, I doubt you're likely to convince your average fantasy reader that a man who does needlepoint is better than one who does not. (Let alone that he isn't homosexual–a convergence of two stupid prejudices, rather than just one.) As someone who's done both heavy-weapons combat and embroidery (and both equally indifferently… ), I'd never be inclined to consider either demeaning, nor any other task that proved useful. But I've also frequently noticed that my own views tend to diverge from those of the society I find myself compelled to live amongst.

-

I don't see the difficulty in that, but maybe that's just me. After all, in much of medieval Europe pretty much any skilled craft was the domain of men, even needlework. Offhand I can't think of one that has been associated with women for more than a couple hundred years (though this area is definitely not my forte).

Actually, I had to cast about for a minute to come up with needlework… since I know full well that most tasks have been performed by both genders–often very close to equally–throughout European history. (My other main candidate was spinning.) Doesn't change the stereotypes, unfortunately. That might be part of the problem: soldiering was one of the few that was highly differentiated. On the other hand, so was fishing, so I'm not sure how far that can be taken. They certainly occupied very different positions in the social spectrum. And while I don't have any numbers at hand, I strongly doubt there were that many more soldiers than fishermen, such that one would become strongly associated with men and the other would be largely ignored.

-

Sometimes I think, I'm rather wrong in the fantasy genre, especially because I prefer democracies or dictatorships to kingdoms, but where else to go to with the magic?

Go to Steven Brust and Glen Cook. You'll never feel the need to ask that question again… well, not about the role of women, at least. (They aren't as big on democracies.) Strong women–however you take that–they've definitely got. And plenty of magic. And in Brust's case, there's even a leading male character who regularly engages in… needlepoint.

 

[Kit]

Karen Wehrstein does probably the best job I've seen so far in creating a society with equality of genders. (Jabrosky- there's also a strong black female MC in an interracial relationship in this story.)

Women do not need to turn themselves into faux men in order to be fighters. I am 5 feet tall and 124lb, and a martial artist. Yes, it is challenging to spar men who are three times my size, and they usually beat me- but that's because they are heavier and have longer arms and more muscle mass, not because they have penises. The women who are heavier than me and have longer arms and more muscle usually beat me too. It is also worthwhile to note that all of those people have training, and I'd certainly fare better against a random big guy who has no training.

Sometimes I can beat THEM by being faster and more flexible, having better targeting, or if they have less training than I do. Men who are closer to my weight, we're pretty evenly matched. I have a lot of muscle, but it doesn't make my body look like a man's.

In Brazilian JiuJitsu, it's a common tradition for the teacher to pair the big brand-new guy with the tiniest female advanced student in the room on his first night and let her tool on him, to show that technique can trump size. (This also weeds out the egotistical a-holes, which we don't want in our MA schools anyway.)

There is always a market for stories with "traditional" damsel-in-distress stories, but I like to think that the market for alternatives to that is growing. My favorite fairy tale is Tam Lin, where the WOMAN rescues the man!

In my WIP, I'm trying to keep the genders equal in my society. Recently I found- much to my amusement- that that means (in my case) that I had to do away with the concept of dresses entirely.

 

[SeverinR]

Kit has it right.

Size, height and mass rule in close in combat.
Strength is important, but reach, and physics matter more.
Strength lets you hit hard, but if you can't reach to make the hit, its worthless.

That is why my women tend to fence then to heave swords around.

A woman can do as well against a man their size(if they are commited.)

I do like damsels in distress, but I turn it with reality. The woman when faced with a rescue or good shot at escape will act in their defense as most people, man or woman would do.

I think gender bias is a good realism to challenge, not by changing nature, but by using what women have to make them survivable in a hostile world. Smaller people are quicker, smaller means lower center of gravity, meaning they are harder to knock off their feet. (Unless blitz'd by a 400 lb armored man, ask a quarterback) also smaller people are lighter.

In martial arts, size matters, but you can work around it. It takes a lot of energy to fling a giant sword around stomping around in heavy armor, while your opponent bounces effortlessly side to side.

I believe most smaller people would prefer to stay out of close in combat, and use missles or magic to fend off the typical barbarian. It's healthier that way.

 

[Kit]

Other small fighters may have different opinions/experiences, but surprisingly I do much better against a large opponant up close.

I used to have a kung fu classmate who was six feet tall and very wiry-strong. His arms seemed a mile long. I always did very poorly against him in stand-up striking. He could reach me long before I could reach him, and just hold me off and keep walloping me while I couldn't get near enough to strike him at all.

If I could close, though, his long arms couldn't do as well once I was pressed right up against him- while I could go to town. Part of this was because he physically could not make full use of his body mechanics at that range, and part of it was that he just wasn't accustomed to fighting like that. People tried to engage him on his terms- stand-up at his arm range- and he kicked all their asses.

Weapons don't seem to even the playing field much. A weapon is the extension of your arm, and his weapon was still tacked onto a very long arm that had better reach than my weapon on my short arm. Not to mention that the ideal length of your sword, staff, etc is a function of your height, so his weapons were longer and heavier than mine.

In general, I do better grappling at close range than striking at longer range, even if the opponent is bigger.

Smaller fighters have our center of gravity closer to the ground, which changes the physics of grappling a lot. Techniques that work on people your own size often fall flat when you try them on a person whose center of gravity is in a very different place. Throws, for example- even very skilled martial artists have a heck of a time trying to throw me.

No matter how big the opponent is, he still has to breathe, so the smaller opponent can go for a choke or a tracheal strike. He still has to see, so a smaller opponent goes for the eyes.

If your adversary is larger and stronger, generally the longer you spend fighting the worse it gets for you, so the smaller person has to be both economical and ruthless and incapacitate the opponant as swiftly as possible. (The exception is when he's bigger because he's out of shape- in that case you can sometimes exhaust him and wait till he's winded, and then finish him off...)

Missles, of course, are a completely different story. That really DOES nullify size difference (although relative strength of throwing or being able to draw a heavier bow still come into play).

The most important factor is to figure out what your strengths are and tailor your fighting style to those strengths. It's true that when you're less than half your opponent's size, it's going to be hard to fight him on his terms... so you have to fight him on YOUR terms.

 

[Telcontar]

It is also worthwhile to note that all of those people have training, and I'd certainly fare better against a random big guy who has no training.

Definitely. When taking two people of roughly equal training, size will matter a lot more - largely, it is training and experience that have to go towards making up for physical disadvantages. Some, such as the already-mentioned low center of gravity, turn out to be strengths in their own way.

Furthermore, once you move past sparring a lot of benefits open up. Especially in striking arts, sparring puts smaller people at a larger disadvantage (unless they have a very noticeable speed advantage) because they cannot make up for their small size by being, at a word, vicious. I often tell my students that the first thing I would do in a highly asymmetrical, and serious, fight, is to break my opponents knee. Being short, I'm already close to his legs...

 

[Kit]

I often tell my students that the first thing I would do in a highly asymmetrical, and serious, fight, is to break my opponents knee. Being short, I'm already close to his legs...

Knees are fun, but that tender, vulnerable throat...... such a tempting target.......

 

[Telcontar]

But it can be so high up!

 

[Reaver]

"Kit;19901]Women do not need to turn themselves into faux men in order to be fighters. I am 5 feet tall and 124lb, and a martial artist. Yes, it is challenging to spar men who are three times my size, and they usually beat me-"


Who cares if you lose sometimes, Kit? The fact that you can hold your own against 15 feet tall, 372 pound men is impressive. You're now officially my female superhero--Sorry Wonder Woman

 

[Kit]

But it can be so high up!

That's why you gotta knock him down!

 

[Kit]

"Kit;19901]
Who cares if you lose sometimes, Kit? The fact that you can hold your own against 15 feet tall, 372 pound men is impressive. You're now officially my female superhero--Sorry Wonder Woman

We're all writers here, we understand a little artistic license! (or hyperbole, if you will...)

 

[Reaver]

Certainly. Hopefully we can also get a little tongue-in-cheek humor. I meant no offense.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Who cares if you lose sometimes, Kit? The fact that you can hold your own against 15 feet tall, 372 pound men is impressive. You're now officially my female superhero--Sorry Wonder Woman

Bah! If he's that tall and not even twice my weight, I'll bet he has really skinny legs. I could take him!

EDIT- Or maybe not! Reaver has just ninja'd me even more effectively than when I ninja'd him in the synopsis thread! I better get to my karate class today... I need more training!

 

[ascanius]

As I’ve mentioned there, one of the fantasy clichés I can stand least are the stories female protagonists defying the rules of their society for no reason. The author, usually a female one, creates a strictly patriarchal society, but for obvious reasons she doesn’t like this herself. And what does she do then? She has her character who has lived there all her life hate this society as well, without every explaining, why she’d start thinking that way. The protagonist either dresses like a boy or succeeds against all odds and evil, chauvinist men.

This is a good point that I agree with fully. I find it really annoying when something is included for the simple sake of politics, because in cases like these that is the only reason for it.

Why does it seem to be such an issue to actually create a society where the gender roles are different? Especially if magic comes into the game, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t have similar effects, modern technology had in our own world, at least for the people who are able to use it. And even without magic, this isn’t such an impossible task. Fighting women haven’t been unheard of in real life either, especially in ancient times. Among some western Asian people, women have been buried with weapons as well. Why not go from something like this and make it make sense in your world?
And if you do that, have the courage to have evil and cruel women as well.

Do you mean men going off to war while women sit at home with the children? I think it wouldn't make much sense if the women went off to war while the men stayed home, or had the roles reversed. If you think about it anything requiring physical labor a man could do faster, easier, better (I don't necessarily mean quality wise). If you are asking why women are not portrayed beyond their roles such as fighters, rulers, and the like then I see no reason why should not be. Having variation, I think, gives a much greater depth and lends credibility to the world, nothing is ever set in stone. I don't think I understand what you mean.

Strong female characters don’t have to be fighters though. There aren’t nearly enough stories that give respect to the numerous tasks women actually did perform and are still performing in many societies.

Now this is something I am interested in. How is a woman strong if not physically strong? I've been trying to figure out what strong means when it comes to the female sex. Having a female character that can kick the ass of a 200lb brute, that acts more like a guy I tend to be annoyed with. I mean how do you portray strength when it comes to a woman. I have a female character that I want to be stronger than another male character/love interest. She kicks ass but I want to grasp what it is to be strong as a woman not just fighting. I think I'm going in the right directions, but I could still be on the wrong continent. So far I have portrayed her as being compassionate despite the horrible things that have happened to her. You don't know how bad I want to tell every thing about her, she is my favorite character. Another thing that I am doing with her is showing sense of respect and honor to her people when she is asked to do things like marry someone she does not know, though it's much more complicated than that.

Even in modern western society "strong women" usually are expected to act like men are supposed to act. This is going so far that sometimes, women are asked to learn to speak in a deeper voice because otherwise they aren't supposed to be taken seriously and other things like that.

Women will never succeed so long as they play by the rules of men, nor will they succeed so long as they refer to themselves as substandard, plumbing or otherwise.

Let me confess to an obsession that has been driving me insane for years: I want more than anything else in the world to publish a fantasy story featuring a strong and beautiful African female protagonist who kicks butt and has an interracial relationship. I feel that strong yet romantically desirable black female characters are too scarce in fantasy or any other genre (or in any kind of creative media in general) and that getting such a story out there would present a much-needed sympathetic portrayal of a black woman in the media. The fact that I haven't been able to get such a story completed or even decide exactly what my plot or setting is going to be has been a continual source of frustration for me and I am angry at myself for lacking the self-discipline to pull it off successfully.

Hmm. One of my characters is black, modeled after the Himba tribe with the red ocher skin and everything. She kicks butt, better than most. However... Ill leave that for a question I have.

The most important factor is to figure out what your strengths are and tailor your fighting style to those strengths. It's true that when you're less than half your opponent's size, it's going to be hard to fight him on his terms... so you have to fight him on YOUR terms.

I rock climb so I though i would throw this out there, Women tend to do better in rock climbing then men do, or they usually find it easier. It's sorta funny how this works. Men with greater upper body strength will power themselves up the face getting tired pretty quickly. Women on the other hand do not have the strength to do this so they rely on there legs a lot more than the guys do, they save a lot more energy, and get up the wall much more efficiently than the guys do.

So while we are on the topic I was wondering what you all think about beauty and women in fantasy, Rolling Stone anyone? One of my characters that I mentioned above who is the love interest and impact character for another main character is black, or better ocher, same physical features. However she is by no means beautiful. She has terrible small scars that cover her entire body. She is stared at, ostracized and the whole shebang. These are my two major characters and I thought I would ask what people thought about the love interest being ugly and not the supermodel beautiful. She is my favorite character, and the one I have most fun writing. She doesn't speak, and rarely uses the hand gestures. She has a very strong sense of duty to her people and traditions even when they force her to do things she would never do given the choice. She is strong willed, short tempered, but very calculating and a quick study. She is someone who will put others first. I can go on but then there wont be any surprises.